Bernard: In this episode...
Alice Muir: I was able to improve
a paywall, massively by about
six times by, just stripping out
a lot of the fluff basically,
it had like a 60% off discount
at the top, a countdown timer.
And then, in the pills that show
the prices that had a bunch of
strikethroughs and this is your price
by day and this is your price by week
I was like, man, I think we need
to strip all of this stuff out.
Show one plan.
Let's do the back of the napkin
math, figure out what we actually
need to hit your LTV targets.
Get a good cac, all of this kind of thing.
And then let's show one
plan that goes after that.
Jacob: hey Alice I'm so excited to
have you on the podcast so we're we're
gonna talk monetization AI apps and
more but first you live in Berlin and
you told me earlier today that you
you went to a baby rave And so we're
gonna dive into subscription apps but
first I have to ask what that was like
Alice Muir: Yeah, baby rooves are
an amazing concept for parents.
Uh, who in the past would've been
ravers basically, or would've
gone clubbing or at partying.
And um, actually first came across this
concept years ago when I lived in Glasgow.
'cause I had a friend who was
a DJ who used to DJ at them.
Um, and yeah, and, and this is something
that's really popular in Berlin now.
And of course the day is May the first.
And in Berlin that's a pretty significant
day where there's a lot of, um, kind of.
Uh, there's a mix of left-wing protests
and um, like kind of raves that pop
up in parks, unofficial raves that
pop up in parks during the day.
And it's all a sort of
celebration of Labor's day and
Labor, sorry, a celebration of
Labor Day and workers' rights.
And, um, yeah, me and my husband were
feeling a bit sad that we couldn't do
like the traditional May the first, so
we found a baby rave to go to instead.
So we took our, our little 1-year-old girl
to that and she had an absolute blast.
So it was brilliant.
Um, and there's lots of music for
the adults, for the parents, and
lots of kind of bubbles and like fun
things for toddlers to play with too.
So it's such a great concept.
Jacob: That's amazing I would expect
nothing less uh from Berlin let's let's
dive into some subscription apps So I
wanna first start by going back in time
a little bit you've worked with apps
like Headspace Visco Adobe SoundClouds
on monetization retention and past work
and but the subscription app world has
has changed so much in the last few years
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: you know what did the what did
the playbook look like when you got into
this space and and I guess how things
have changed What was everyone doing
that you now think is was maybe wrong
Alice Muir: It is a really good question.
I think, I think the playbook and
the whole app world has changed
massively since I got into the space.
Um, first of all, I think when I
started working on retention, most
other people were really focused,
heavily focused on acquisition.
And you saw that in some of like
the conferences and like a lot of
the thought leadership and stuff.
I know that, for example, MAU
conference, which is coming up this
month, um, historically was more
of an acquisition con conference.
And now over the last few years it's kind
of ex, you know, the topics have really
expanded, um, into things like retention,
engagement, this type of stuff too.
Um, but yeah, I definitely see a lot
more retention specialists in the
space, um, which is, and, and, um,
Jacob, I've been following you for
a long time and sometimes I see your
content, I'm like finally somebody
that, you know, somebody else that
thinks, um, similarly, which is great.
Um, but certainly, yeah,
I think people are.
Um, more interested in
retention and engagement now
because the game's got harder.
Um, I think, you know, there's so much
competition in this space and that's
only gonna get worse with, uh, ai, um,
entering, entering the picture as well.
You know, the fact that people can
throw up apps over a weekend, um,
so that problem's not gonna go away.
And so it's not enough just
to build a basic app, get some
users in, and hope for the best.
Like we have to be building things,
um, building products that, you know,
really stick with a user throughout.
And, and help them solve a problem
throughout their life and that
the way and the angle that you
solve that problem might change.
Um, so continuously thinking about, okay,
you know, Headspace is a great example.
We bring you in for mindfulness
and meditation, but then like later
down the line, we might want to
also expand into supporting you with
exercise, mindful exercise, mindful
sleep, all this type of thing.
I always use that example, but
so many apps now have to think,
how can we continue to be a
part of this person's life?
Because there is so much competition
and users are, you know, they're,
I think users are a little bit.
Hesitant about subscriptions nowadays
because there's so much competition
because of like recurring billing and
you know this question about, um, you
know, whether or not they're actually
gonna be using these products as well.
Um, so yeah, so it's a lot harder.
And then of course there's been all
these, um, platform updates, you know,
from Apple, things like, you know,
gripping, uh, push notifications,
even like Silent Push came in,
that was a few years ago as well.
And um, you know, all of these
changes to how the iPhone works and
how, how users engage with their
phones, how users engage with apps.
Um, and then of course there was
all the privacy stuff as well, like
a TT and all of this kind of thing.
So, I mean, when I started
none of that was a thing.
It was like, you know, companies
were impressed when you put
together an engagement strategy
with push notifications and now
that just doesn't cut it anymore.
Um, so yeah, it's definitely a
fun time to be in mobile growth.
Jacob: I I yeah I remember you know
going to conferences and you know every
single talk was on acquisition and and
growth You know growth was essentially
just paid ads right That's what growth
meant And you know you would you would
struggle you'd look through the agenda
where's my you know conversion Where's
my retention Where's the where's the
engagement talk that I can go to So
Alice Muir: Yeah,
Jacob: a hundred percent relate And yeah
you have to uh it's a much more holistic
game now if you don't have you know strong
conversion optimization monetization
retention strategy um you're uh uh your
paid ads kind of just just won't work uh
Alice Muir: absolutely.
Jacob: just just to have a have a good
ad Uh and it's harder to have you know
a good ad today So I I think You know
one concept that that's you know super
interesting to kind of understand better
uh to kind of drive retention early
engagement monetization I is this um uh
I think you talk about strategic friction
Alice Muir: Mm-hmm.
Jacob: and and uh and getting users
into your app Um in the past uh uh it
it was kind of give users about 80 of
the solution for free and then make
the the last 20 it's reason to upgrade
Um how how do you think about that And
maybe you can give some examples of
how this worked and people can use it
Alice Muir: Yeah, so I think
the, the best example that I
have of that is MyFitnessPal.
So MyFitnessPal basically, um, I think
most, I mean, it's a household name now
I think many people know MyFitnessPal.
Um, but for those that don't, it's
basically an app that helps you to
track, uh, calories basically and other
kind of, uh, macro your macros and
other health and nutrition information.
And it's targeted at people that wanna
get in shape or they wanna lose weight,
or they have a goal around that.
Um, and what MyFitnessPal
originally did was they had a lot
of stuff on the free tier, um,
including barcode scanning, right?
Um, so essentially you could manually
input your calorie information
or your nutrition information.
Um, and you could also for, for speeds
and, and, um, efficiency, you could also
use a barcode scanner to do that as well.
And then behi, what they had behind
the paywall was more premium kind
of information about like recipes
or going deeper into like macros
and like this type of stuff.
Right.
Um, and like I would say that there wasn't
a lot of strategic friction there because
essentially a user that wanted to lose
weight, who was focused on their, their,
you know, ca the, the simple calories
in ca calories out, they could pretty
much do everything with MyFitnessPal
and they didn't have to subscribe.
Right.
And then a few years later, as
MyFitnessPal grew, they kind of cottoned
onto this and they realized, right.
Okay.
Actually one of our most
valuable features, which is
the speed and efficiency part.
Um, is free.
So let's put that behind a paywall.
And I think I understood their logic.
I think it was very smart what they did.
I think they did it far too late
because customers, um, or users were
already expecting to have that for free.
Right.
And, and it had been
that way for, for years.
And so, like, um, I, I worked with
MyFitnessPal back when I worked at
Feature, and, and I always think about
that, um, example, when I think about
strategic friction or I'm trying to
explain it, and it's exactly as you
said, it's, it's helping users get
like 80% of their problem done, but
you're leaving like the last 20%.
If they really want to complete their
problem, um, or they really want to like
do something well, and it's out like
something that's outcome driven, they
need to upgrade to be able to do that.
So if we go back to the
MyFitnessPal example, you know.
What there with strategic friction,
a user could, you know, still input
their calorie information or their
nutritional information, but if they
wanted that speed and efficiency part,
they actually needed to be a subscriber
to do that so they could do it in a
way that wasn't painfully frustrating.
Jacob: Yeah
Alice Muir: that make sense?
Jacob: you Yeah Do you um something
I worry about is well if that's the
the valuable part that people want how
do we balance this Like showing that
value upfront people understanding you
know this is why I should pay for it
Verse gating it and and not allowing
people to get to that value Uh how do
you think about like the the selling
of that value letting people experience
that versus um you know blocking it
Alice Muir: Do you mean like hard
pays versus like allowing people
to, to get some to discover?
Jacob: it's if um if they can't see it
without starting a trial um does people
have to start a trial and is that a
blocking thing So it's all about that
trial start or should you let people
experience something a a little bit of
value before even um having to kind of do
any you know you know monetization focused
action a trial any payment And and cause
Alice Muir: Yeah,
Jacob: you know we wanna show value
upfront to kind of drive a trial start
but and so is it just talking about
it is it some like faux experience
is letting em do it once or you know
I'm curious what you think there
Alice Muir: so I think this is
actually a huge question because this
is cha, this whole concept in the app
space is changing so fast right now.
It's changing with AI and it's also
changing with web to app as well.
Um, I think.
I always say you, what you want to
do is protect your learning actions.
So a user should be able to learn what
your product does or like how it kind
of feels, how the UX feels for free.
Um, but we should be
charging for outcomes.
So like whatever, like the problem is
solved, they've completed what they're
there to do, that's the outcome and
that's what should be charged for.
Now that sounds simple to say it here,
but in the world of like AI and compute
and all of this type of stuff and
these additional costs that are being
layered in, like that becomes a lot
more complicated as well because ma
in some cases, even letting your users
learn can also have, you know, compute
costs or GPU costs attached to it.
Um, and so this is, this is something
that I think the whole industry is
trying to figure out right now, um, which
you know, is how much can we actually.
How, how can we show value and, you
know, improve conversion without letting
everybody loose on the product and rank
and, you know, racking up all these costs.
Um, and I think there's like,
you know, there's, there's
some ways to think about this.
Um, one of them is, is there, are
there cheaper actions in your product
that could be part of a trial?
So my understanding now, I'm definitely
not an AI engineer, but my understanding
is that, um, there's certain actions
that are far cheaper than others.
So, for example, short text based prompts.
Are much cheaper than, you know, if you're
trying to prompt, uh, like, say, say,
if you're asking like a really simple
question that's really a lot cheaper
than if you're trying to kind of create
some viral video, for example, that's
like 10 minutes long and you're trying
to prompt AI to create this, like, you
know, this video is, um, that's gonna go
viral and it's got all these kind of crazy
effects in it and all that kinda stuff.
So I think like being able to,
you know, bring users in and,
and help them, maybe try a first
prompt, um, is an interesting one.
But then if they want to like, go
further and edit something that
they've, um, asked an AI product to
do, like, okay, well that's when we're
getting into like expensive territory.
So it's like, okay, maybe for, you know,
a number of edits, uh, certain, you know,
maybe beyond like one edit should be like
behind a paywall, if that makes sense.
Is this making sense?
Jacob: Yeah What what was the framework
you said about kinda the learning
action and and the the kind of
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: This is a really great concept
to think about like what you give away
versus what what you kinda make people
pay for and kind of figuring out the right
balance there And and I think if it's if
it's a visual product maybe it's easier to
show it right But if it's not how do you
educate people so I think that's a that's
a great thing to think about I really like
that idea of you know the valuable action
oriented the the what people actually get
they they should pay for But how do you
allow people to learn about that uh to
convince them that they should pay for it
Alice Muir: Yeah, absolutely.
And I think, um, and you, you had
previously when we were, we caught
up previously, you had asked me about
this as well, and I think, um, one
of, there are creative ways that
companies are like, find, you know,
finding ways to do this, um, without
actually racking up additional costs.
I think one of the most
obvious is if you've got an
AI app that's like, you know.
Show me what I'm gonna look like with
certain, a certain haircut or whatever.
You know, you see these sometimes,
like these color palette match
kind of apps, if that makes sense.
Um, they, you know, showing people on
those types of apps, you can kind of
show people through an avatar, like the
before and after effect, for example.
Um, so you can show in the onboarding what
a typical output might, might look like.
Similar with, um, 'cause I know
like video generation apps are,
are pretty popular at the moment.
So like, again, you can show like a
typical, maybe you, you, um, maybe you
have like a mockup of somebody prompting
and then you can show a typical output
from that so you can, you know, you're,
you're displaying value in that way.
Um, I think another thing one, like some
of the bigger players like Lovable and
also Claude have gotten really good at,
um, protecting their costs as well by.
You know, making sure that they really
understand the brief from somebody.
So like, say somebody does put in
an initial prompt, they might be
like, well, okay, before we go a step
further, you know, is this actually
what you mean and what you want to do?
And I think that becomes
particularly important when
credits are, are involved as well.
Um, you know, because Jacob, I know
we're kind of moving into, this is
opening a whole can of worms here,
so please feel free to bring me back.
But I think that also is, is important
when like things like credits and
usage limits are involved as well, so
that we can make sure that especially
if somebody's a new user and they're
trying something out, that they're
actually getting the value that
they, uh, that they want basically,
and we're going down the right path.
Jacob: Yeah Yeah There there's there's
so much we can dig into there So I I uh
yeah I do wanna dig into that more So
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: when when we when we think about
um Most you know most subscription apps
uh you know 90 plus percent of installs
never become subscribers right Most people
Alice Muir: Mm-hmm
Jacob: and I think that you know
some people say okay well all the
users that aren't gonna pay are
distraction You know only focus on
your high energy uh focus your energy
on kinda this high intent cohort
Alice Muir: Mm-hmm.
Jacob: others well okay you have
90 of those users Uh why why don't
you try some in-app purchases and
upsells Um and you know maybe ads
And and this becomes uh you know more
interesting with AI kind of talking
about these fixed costs of free users
Alice Muir: Mm-hmm.
Jacob: aren't free anymore Um and and
and so how do you think about this
you know monetizing these lower intent
users and then also how how does this
differ for which kind of got into for
apps that have uh um some AI component
Alice Muir: Yeah, it is
really interesting, I think.
Um.
For, for larger apps that have huge
amount of scale, I would always
say like, focus on that 10% that's
gonna, that's gonna convert where
it makes where it makes sense.
Or at least I would've said
that before ai, before AI came
and complicated everything.
Um, but I think as you said that,
you know, hybrid monetization, I
think Toma Petit also wrote, um,
a really good article about this
for, um, revenue cap recently too.
And I think hi hybrid monetization
is, you know, is really making a big
comeback because certain companies
are realizing that, you know, we
need to recoup some of these costs.
Oops.
Sorry, that's my
headphone that's come out.
Um, I'm just gonna keep going.
Uh, yeah.
So Tema Temae also wrote about this
recently about, you know, the comeback
of kind of hybrid monetization and why
that's, um, why that's becoming so big,
or it's really, it's really talked about
right now in the industry because a
lot of these large, or a lot of these
companies that have, um, AI features
are realizing, Hey, wait a minute.
You know, if we're only gonna get
like 10% to convert, we need to
find a way to recoup costs from,
from, um, the rest of the user base.
And I've seen a different approach,
a few different approaches to this.
One of the one approach I've seen is,
you know, larger companies, like for
example, dual lingo are sound, right?
We're gonna have ai, I think notion also
is the same, but we're going to just
keep AI for like a higher value use case
and a higher value segment of users.
Um, and then there's, you know,
the, the other skill of thought
thought where it's like, no, ai,
we are an AI powered product.
Um, but even then, you know, we are
gonna still have like 10% convert to
subscription, but then we're gonna have
this huge user base that's gonna be kind
of like novelty or curiosity driven.
Um, and I think that's such an interesting
problem to solve, and that's where
the whole kind of credit packs versus
subscription debate comes in because
it's like, we see some apps where, and
I talked about this at AIM conference
recently, we see some apps where they're
like, no, we're gonna go after the people
that are higher value that convert.
And so they say, right, we're gonna
have the subscriptions and we're gonna
say like, either you're gonna subscribe
to this or you're kind of, you know,
you're, we kind of don't want you here.
Um, but then there's like
credit packs for subscribers.
And then there's other companies
that are taking the approach of like,
no, we're actually gonna do credits
and usage based, um, pricing instead
so that we cater for everybody.
Um, and I think it all just
depends on your scale, like
the stage of the business.
It's much, it's much harder
to kind of hard paywall.
Things.
If you're a very early stage and
nobody knows the brand and you don't
have that kind of like brand trust,
you're not a household name like this.
It's very, very hard to hard
pay wall, everything there.
Um, and so getting the balance
is just incredibly difficult.
And again, it's one of those
things that we're all sort of in it
together trying to figure this out.
Um, yeah,
Jacob: And think that the hybrid approach
is is super interesting but it gets very
complicated right Like maintaining all
these things all these different offerings
is do do you think that apps should I
I is hybrid monetization a a kind of
a later term longer term approach When
you want to reach larger scale or for AI
Alice Muir: AI apps,
Jacob: to start with that immediately
Alice Muir: that's a really good question.
I think, um, if, and I guess there's
two different types of apps here, right?
There's apps that are like massively
established that have been around
for years that then layer in ai.
Duolingo is a great example of that.
And then there's apps, you know,
we see all these apps popping up
now that are like AI powered apps.
And I think, um, if you are a company
that already has a user base that's
with, you know, with you for your core
offering, and I see this work really
well when it's like, you know, somebody's
built their app around habit formation.
So for example, um, using the
Duolingo example again, you know,
learning or, um, meditation, so
calm, headspace type of stuff.
Like for those types of apps, I
feel like, you know, um, allowing
people to continue to build a habit
on a subscription plan makes sense.
And then if you find that higher value
cohort layering in some kind of like
either additional tier or, um, you know,
something where if it makes sense, like
a kind of hybrid monetization tier.
So that you're enabling high, like that
particular cohort to use an AI version
of what you're doing makes sense.
But I think where companies have
to be careful is that you should
only be layering in AI if it
actually solves, like, if it helps
you deliver your value better.
Um, but if you're just layering it in
because you're like, and I think there
was a famous, I think it was notion, there
was a famous, um, case study about this.
If you're just layering it in, 'cause
you're like, okay, AI sounds great,
um, this is what we need to be doing.
But then you realize it cuts your margin
and doesn't actually help you devalue,
help you deliver value any better, then
it's, then it's like, well you either
have to find, you know, a different, you
either have to find product market fit
for that and put it behind a different
product, um, or a different price and
package in tier and you keep it kind
of separate from your core offering.
Um, does that, does that make sense?
Or, or you're, then you have to
question like, or you have to
question whether or not that's like
the right approach for, for you and
your business, if that makes sense.
Jacob: Yeah
Alice Muir: hi, hi.
Hybrid monetization, I feel like
is, makes more sense when a company
starting out as an AI powered app.
So I'm talking about like your face
swaps and your wardrobe generators,
like this, this type of thing.
Right.
Um, then it makes sense to be thinking
in terms of hybrid monetization,
so serving ads and subscription or
in-app purchases because, you know,
these are not huge household brands.
They don't, they haven't, they haven't
built, you know, a a, a cult following
around what, whatever it is they do.
And so, yeah, I think it would be silly
to, and especially as acquisitions getting
more expensive, I think it would be.
Um, silly to leave money on the
table in that case by not having
ads to help me recoup costs.
I hope that makes sense.
And it was a bit of a
roundabout way of answering.
Jacob: No it's a great summary in terms
of thinking about um yeah if you at your
core your just normal subscription product
and you and you're you know layering
in some AI features um Think about who
those make sense for Don't just give them
weight to everybody but if your core value
prop is something around ai something
generative um you know don't be naive
that there's fixed cost to that And that
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: if you if you have if you
allow free users to use those
Alice Muir: Users use things,
Jacob: need to
Alice Muir: need to monetize them somehow.
Jacob: um if they're not willing to
pay for a subscription you know think
Alice Muir: Think about something
Jacob: weekly
Alice Muir: weekly.
Offer
Jacob: uh uh in-app purchases
Alice Muir: that
Jacob: uh basically ta ca cater to
that different willingness to pay or
or different perception of value uh
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: the you're always gonna have
cost And and so don't just uh give away
the house uh if if you if you don't
have to Yeah I think I think that's
that's a great way to think about it
And and because monetization can get
complicated and so you don't wanna just
do it because you you think you should
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: you read an article
about you you should kind of
Alice Muir: Understand
Jacob: fits into into your business as
Alice Muir: business as well.
And for these, um, for these apps
that are starting out as AI powered
apps, I mean the struggle is real
right now in terms of profitability.
Um, you think about, you know, the,
if you're over 1 million a RR, then
you're on the 30%, um, apple tax
and there was 15%, um, for newer
developers that are under that.
Um, but if you are, then you're
on that 30% or you're paying the
app the highest tier Apple tax.
And then on top of that, you've
got normal business tax as
reducing in your profit even more.
Then you've got now these additional
GPU costs, which depend on what
your app does, can be pretty pricey.
Um, and all of that is before you have
even, you know, thought about kind of
operations of how you're actually running
your business and all, you know, so
this is, this is really difficult stuff.
You need huge amounts of scale, which,
and it's a perfect storm because, you
know, I mean, I, as you know, I'm not an
acquisition specialist, but all I hear
from our acquisition peers is like, you
know, this is just getting, like Met is
getting so unbelievably expensive and
all, you know, so it's like you need huge
amounts of scale, which is, it's like the
chicken and the egg, you know, it must be,
it's so difficult to get that scale and
to make it profitable at the same time.
Few people are gonna be able to do that.
Well, I think.
Um, so it's, yeah, it's
such an interesting.
Time to be working with
those types of apps.
Um, and I think as well, that's where
the whole question about like the
subscription strategy, um, comes into
play as well because I think a lot
of these apps are saying like, you
know, traditional subscription just
doesn't work because consumers are
expecting certain price, kind of price
points that we've had for years now.
You know, so like, I think a lot of
these, um, types of apps are having to
charge a lot more because of these costs.
But then if users aren't getting that
value straight away, which is where
you and I people that you and I come
in, you know, um, and getting user,
you know, getting users to activate
and really understand the product.
And if they're not doing that well,
then nobody's gonna be paying like
these a hundred dollars subscriptions
or whatever for these, essentially,
kind of, in a lot of cases,
novelty, novelty products, you know.
Jacob: we see on the on the uh B2B side
you know all all these AI products have
some usage based pricing right But this
is pretty pretty hard to do a like without
without credits which is complicated
and and you're under monetizing
People understand it And so I think
Alice Muir: I think that
Jacob: a lot of
Alice Muir: a lot of AI using weekly,
Jacob: weekly
Alice Muir: tiers, yes.
Jacob: is
Alice Muir: It's
kind
of like a proxy
Jacob: usage right cause if
Alice Muir: because if you're
Jacob: it a bunch you're
you're getting charged a higher
Alice Muir: amount
Jacob: hypothetically If you aren't
using it you stop paying for weekly
usually Apps get a little a few
more weekly cycles before someone
actually remembers they have it and
they cancel their plan But but it's
Alice Muir: that's also because,
Jacob: um have um higher people have
very high intent for short periods right
Alice Muir: right?
Yes.
Jacob: this I wanna try it out but I
don't really know if I want to use it for
a year And so I think a lot of these AI
Alice Muir: Ai.
Jacob: from my experience curious to
this matches like they have actually
super high initial conversion rates but
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: high
Alice Muir: High.
Jacob: And
Alice Muir: And so
Jacob: when you get
Alice Muir: get started.
Jacob: oh this is gonna be a great
business But then you realize you
don't no one retains no one stays with
it And and so it's this it's it's a
it's a much different business than
traditional subscription apps Okay
Alice Muir: Yeah, absolutely.
And it makes sense.
I mean, if you think about what some
of these, you know, some of these
products are, they are kind of, in a
lot of cases not, I mean this doesn't
apply to everybody, but in a lot of
cases they are kind of novelty products
and you know, I remember working with
a portfolio of apps and they had a lot
of these kind of AI powered, you know,
like, you know, look, we'll help you.
See what your baby's, your future baby's
gonna look like, and like, these kind,
it kinda, it weirdly kinda reminds me of
like the early days of the app store when
we had these like, you know, lighter apps
and things like that's kinda, I know that
a, these AI apps will, you know, they
will evolve over time, but it does kinda
bring me back to some of these things that
were on the app store at the beginning.
Um, but yeah, this company that I worked
with had a bunch of AI powered apps and
uh, I actually, a great example is like
song generators and they were trying
to follow the, this, the traditional
subscription playbook, so having like
a weekly and a monthly and an annual
subscription and they were kind of at some
point pushing the annual subscription.
And I was saying to the team
like, let's think this through.
Does it actually make sense
to push the majority of your
users for a music generation
app onto an annual subscription?
Probably not, because I don't think
anybody's gonna be doing that, you know.
And properly retaining
for, for years on end.
Um, so you're right, like
weekly absolutely made
more sense in that context.
And that's just one example, but
they had a lot of apps with that
similar problem, if that makes sense.
So yeah, it, it's, it's given,
it's spring up a lot of questions
about price and packaging and, you
know, what do consumers expect now?
And I think that's another problem
as well, is is that because, because
consumers have been trained by us to
expect a free trial for many years
now, all of a sudden because of these
costs that they might not know about.
I mean, we all know these things 'cause
we work in this industry, but if you're
just like your average Joe downloading
apps, whatever, your average consumer,
you're not necessarily gonna know
about these additional costs, but all
of a sudden you're getting hit with
paywalls, you know, straight away you're
not allowed to do anything for free.
Like, I think it must be quite con
confusing for consumers as well.
What do you think about that?
Jacob: I don't know how much people think
about it I think it's like consciously
I think they go Ugh a paywall I don't
oh whatever I'll I'll leave And and
and some people go I'll try it out
And and so like we think much more in
Alice Muir: Depth?
Jacob: mechanics than probably
normal people I think that
people like free things and
don't like paying for things And
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: um it it kind of goes back
to what we were talking about
originally you really have to have
Alice Muir: To understand the value of,
Jacob: Uh and it's much more important
uh to to convince them and and and
how do you educate them and how do you
do this well to to convince them that
you're worth paying for Where um you
know in consumer world you really have to
Alice Muir: have to think about
Jacob: with
Alice Muir: literally
Jacob: single
Alice Muir: single other product,
Jacob: not just
Alice Muir: not
Jacob: your category You're
Alice Muir: category.
Jacob: with a share of their wallet uh
Alice Muir: Mm-hmm
Jacob: thing in the world they spend
money on And so the bar is is higher
You're not competing against uh the
other AI products You're competing
Alice Muir: Against.
Jacob: their their car insurance
You're competing against their
groceries And and and like and
when you think about it in that
Alice Muir: That sense.
Jacob: this
Alice Muir: Okay.
This is
Jacob: have to educate
Alice Muir: educate them that,
Jacob: uh I I'm worthy of of their
money And and this is hard This is
this is really hard this ties well
to a kind of concept of that that
you were you were talking about I've
talked about in the past of this
margin qualified acquisition for for AI
apps where you know not not all uh uh
users are equal AI app a app flip stick
the cost equation You know traditional
apps you pay for hosting AI apps pay
for thinking So in this kind of the this
this world of of you know paying for
compute that's limited Not all users
are equal you need to attract users
that have a high willingness to pay in
that uh that willingness to pay matches
the kind of usage in test intensity And
this is um this is not a simple problem
to figure out Um it it I think that you
know some pe some teams may be trying
to solve this with you know dynamic
pricing or uplift modeling or or showing
different prices to different users or
just going here's a bunch of offers I
hope they pick one that's right for them
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: do you see this actually playing
out And like maybe maybe explain this
like margin qualified acquisition first
and then we can go into like some real
examples of of of what you've seen
Alice Muir: Yeah.
So I think what I meant by that was I
think companies need to consider that
these costs are, you know, especially
if, if we do have certain action AI
actions for free, um, then I think
you need to kind of bundle that
into your overall acquisition cost.
So, for example, if you're gonna
get somebody into a free trial.
If we stick to our music generation or
song generation app, um, example, if
you're gonna get somebody into a free
trial and you're gonna give them one
song that they can generate as part of
that free trial, then you need to know
what the, the general, what the kind of
general compute cost of that's gonna be.
And I, my thought around that is,
well, that should also be included
in your overall acquisition cost.
Basically your, your cac.
Um, because if you're allowing everyone
that you acquire to come in and have
that, you know, first song for free for
example, then it makes sense then, right?
That that's just part of your, your cost.
I think, um, when we like thinking about
how companies though are segmenting
people that are actually gonna be using.
The AI features, if that's what
I under, if, if I understood you
correctly, I had like the most, I
had the most simple example of this.
It's embarrassingly simple.
Um, but I thought, you know, one, going
back to Duolingo as an example, I, I
think one of the things they do that's
quite smart is they ask users what their
use case is for learning a language.
And if, if a user selects like the kind
of business or work, I'm not sure of
the exact wording, but if somebody, um,
essentially says that they're, they're
learning for like professional purposes,
then they have this other plan called Dual
lingo Max, um, which is an AI powered plan
where you can, you can speak to an ai sort
of, you can do like, um, like kinda coffee
shop role play almost to speak to somebody
in that language, but it's entirely ai.
Um, and I thought that was
like such a good example.
So it's like they're.
Using, you know, their onboarding
to identify what type of user this
is, um, in terms of the quality
of this user, like propensity to
actually subscribe and to what tier.
And then from there they're, they're
offering like once, once they know
that information, they're offering
these higher value features,
AI features to those users.
Um, but Jacob, you had some even
more interesting ideas around that, I
think around like LLMs you mentioned
previously when we had a discussion.
I'm, I'm, but I, yeah, my, my,
uh, way of segmenting on that is
probably embarrassingly simple.
Jacob: No no I think it's it's a um a
a good starting point to understand um
what what value a user is getting uh from
your product and and seeing if you can
align with that value or or kind of give
them a product or an offering And and
you know this is um this is part of what
we're doing at Botsy right We're we're
building you know ML models and AI models
to figure out um know how how do we show
the right offer to the right user And so
it can get um I think that you know some
sometimes we work with clients that go
Hey I I've done simple rule-based stuff
I I showed this offer and this worked
Um we we've segmented by these these
Alice Muir: Attributes
Jacob: and we've seen revenue lift but
it gets very complicated very quick
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: and there there's so much
nuance around okay well how do we
Alice Muir: Do
Jacob: localization on top
Alice Muir: on.
Jacob: with different use cases
And and then how do we handle
different willingness to pay And so
Alice Muir: So
Jacob: that once you get into this world
of of kind of you know uh monetization
personalization and dynamic offers
um you you quickly realize kind of
the value in in um uh kind of more
more AI and ML approaches But um yeah
Alice Muir: yeah.
Jacob: that the the uh teams should try
um simple segmentation and kind of and
they can probably get a little value
there Uh and then you can move into kind
of more more sophisticated approaches
At least this is this is what what we've
seen uh uh kind of kind of work Well um I
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: there I think there was um your
presentation had a few examples here
maybe Um I think there was one from this
is I think related one from like flip o
Alice Muir: Fbo.
Jacob: how you
Alice Muir: Yes, that's right.
Yeah.
Fbo.
Yeah, it was an, uh, FBO is
basically an ai, um, sort of
image and video generating app.
Um, and yeah, and what they did was,
um, they had, they actually did that
segmentation at the point of the paywall.
So basically they had a, so if you
think about the, the user of fbo, so.
Essentially they were going after somebody
that wanted to be like an AI influencer.
And what I meant by that is,
um, somebody that creates
these like viral, crazy videos.
I dunno.
Um, Jacob, if you're on
Instagram, I'm on it.
I'm on Instagram and I see sometimes
in my feeds these like crazy videos.
And it'll be like a baby's just been
born and then we'll like run down
the, they'll like run off the bed
and like down the corridor of the
hospital and then that goes viral.
And it was like, so now you can get
these influencers and that's their whole
job to create these like insane videos.
So that was the kind of person that, or
user or customer that FBO was going after.
Um, but what they did was in their
paywall, they had a basic plan, which for
was for like your kind of curious user.
Um, so maybe not somebody who was
doing that professionally, but was
trying it out and, you know, liked
video creation, this type of thing.
Then they had their pro user who
was somebody who was trying to maybe
get into that like viral influencer
space, um, but maybe not as kind of
intensively as the max user who's
somebody who's already established,
like they're making hundreds of videos
a week or hundreds of creatives a week.
Um, and they would need like as many
credits as, as they could possibly get.
Essentially.
And the reason I use this use case, so
by the way, I, I, I spoke about this at
apps in motion conference in New York
a couple of weeks ago, and the reason
why I used that example is because I
thought it was a really interesting
way of getting users to self-identify.
At the paywall.
Um, so rather than the
traditional, what are you here for?
Questionnaire, the user
gets to the paywall.
They see these different like
personas on the paywall and they're
like, yep, that one's for me.
Like, I'm going to need the
maximum amount of credits.
I just thought it was like quite
sleek and quite, and, and super smart.
Um, in FBOs case, they, uh,
what they found was, is that the
majority of users were sticking
to like the kind of medium plan.
And so eventually that, that data
that they were able to collect there,
um, eventually that made for like
a much simpler paywall where they
could like double down on who are the
users that we are acquire and okay.
Like we can actually
better serve them now.
But I still think it was worth
mentioning that, you know, I, I still
think it's a really good example
of being able to identify users.
I've actually, um, I've been working on
something similar with a fitness app that
I'm, I'm working with just now where.
Um, they've got a quarterly
plan and an annual plan.
And the way that we're framing it is,
um, for the quarterly we're saying
like, do you want, uh, an efficient
sort of 12 week program because
you're in, you know, you're, you're
ones get in shape for an event that's
coming up, or, or for summer, right?
Or do you want, are you more looking
to sort of build lasting habits
and make kind of lasting change?
Because I think you do see that difference
in the fitness space, whereas like some
people have got an event or whatever and
then they're like, I need to double down.
Weddings is such a good example of that.
Um, but then you have other people
that are like, no, I'm actually
just here to make a life change.
And so then we're like, okay,
well annual probably makes more
sense for you if you're serious.
Um, and so we're trying
that out just now as well.
And I just think this whole concept of
getting people to self-identify at the
point of the paywall is super interesting.
Jacob: And so on that paywall
you're showing both plans and
but framing each plan differently
Alice Muir: Yes.
Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah Yeah
Alice Muir: able to flip.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I think maybe some
Jacob: you end up
Alice Muir: end
Jacob: showing different
Alice Muir: different
Jacob: uh as as kind of the the
recommended offer because I think there's
you know there's something about choice
and and if you have too many choices
this reduces kind of uh conversion If
you don't have a if you don't have enough
choices or or and and usually it's not
enough choices Usually it's effective
price anchoring right Where where you
move the choice away like two plans is
great because it moves the choice away
from do I buy or not to which plan do
I buy Uh but if you have too many then
it gets a little um a little hairy
Alice Muir: hair.
Jacob: oh there's I I don't know what
to pick I'm just gonna leave It's kind
of you know uh uh causes indecision
Alice Muir: Decision I was actually
able to improve a paywall recently.
In fact, I was, I was, um, you,
you wanted to ask me a question
about, uh, a success that I was
kind of most happy about recently.
I was able to improve a paywall,
um, massively by about six times
by, um, just stripping out a lot of
the fluff basically, that was on it.
Um, we had, I had this for a
fitness app that I was working with.
I had this pay that had this, it
was a web to app pay, by the way.
Um, and it had like a 60% off discount
at the top, a bunch of like, or
it had like a, a countdown timer.
And then in the, in the sort of the pills
that show the, the prices that had a bunch
of like, strikethroughs and this is your
price by day and this is your price by
week and like, all this kind of stuff.
And I remember saying to the founder,
I was like, you know, I just think
there's so much friction there as a user.
I think people probably land
on this paywall and then
they're like, what the hell?
I don't actually know what I'm paying for.
And the founder was like, and I understand
why, why they took this approach, but
they were like, yeah, but you know,
every, everyone else is doing this.
'cause we had seen like Ladder
did something similar and um,
like, I think it's called Hana
and like all the, all these other
kind of fitness web to app flows.
We're doing something similar.
And I think, you know, if you have
massive scale, you can kind of get
away with some of these things, um,
because you can afford to like lose
a few people at the paywall when you
have millions of users coming in.
But for this app that we're just
kind of, that we're starting out,
I was like, man, I think we need
to strip all of this stuff out.
Show one plan.
Like let's do the, let's do the back
of the napkin math, figure out what we
actually need to hit your LTV targets.
Get a good cac, all of this kind of thing.
Um, and then let's show one
plan that goes after that.
And, um, yeah, and we were able to
actually get this funnel working by
just stripping everything out and
starting with the basics basically.
Um, and I think people
really underestimate that.
They're like, you know, we need to
have like all these plans and we
need to show like by day, by month.
Like, users just want to know
what it is that you sell and what
they're paying for, you know?
Um, yeah.
I think that's the other thing as well.
Sometimes having like multiple plans,
you end up cannibalizing one for the
other, and that gets complicated as well.
You see that a lot in fitness because you
have like the monthly, the quarterly and
the annual, which is quite popular right
now, but usually like the monthly will
then end up kind of, um, people will just,
just go for either monthly or quarterly
and then like, nobody's going for annual.
And it's, yeah, it's all
a bit of a nightmare.
So yes, simpler the simpler
the better on the paywall.
I see.
Jacob: Yeah sometimes it's about going
back to you know first principles of
Alice Muir: of
Jacob: kind of user
Alice Muir: user experience
Jacob: get stuck in this copycat
world of conversion optimization
Well everybody else is doing
Alice Muir: is
Jacob: worked for them I we need the
more win It's like well let's think
about what the the actual user's
Alice Muir: perspective
Jacob: and and and how they're kind
Alice Muir: how
kind
of what
they're seeing, understanding
Jacob: just a you know chaotic mess Yeah
I think I think I think you're right
Alice Muir: it, kinda,
Jacob: away can be
Alice Muir: it kinda,
Jacob: Yeah I
Alice Muir: yeah.
It reminds me of the the, the Blinkist
paywall story, which I'm sure you'll have
come across with your clients as well.
You know that article
that went viral from.
The person at Blink is who designed
this, um, which is a brilliant paywall.
And it's like we're, you know, you're
gonna start your trial and we'll message
you here and then two days in we're
gonna message you four, like whatever.
Um, and then every single person, in fact
all of my clients have tried that paywall.
Um, and then some of 'em get really like
frustrated 'cause they're like, I don't
understand why this isn't working for us.
And it's like, well it works for
kind of habit formation apps, you
know, like there's certain types
of apps this is gonna work for.
But if you're like a utility,
like nobody's gonna want a push
notification two days in, three days
Jacob: no
Alice Muir: in, you know,
Jacob: Yeah
Alice Muir: no one cares about that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jacob: Yep Yep E exactly It's not
Alice Muir: It's not about
Jacob: it's just like
Alice Muir: just
like, can you do what I need you to do?
Mm-hmm.
Jacob: and uh yeah it it is a good point
So um shifting gears a little bit uh
you worked on the uh uh subscription
stack framework and and I think this was
this is amazing framework at at feature
Alice Muir: you.
Jacob: you know Andy started this uh
uh Andy Carve uh uh kind of as some
other growth and mobile mobile growth
stack framework You kind of expanded on
Alice Muir: On
Jacob: this was
Alice Muir: but this was
kind of
Jacob: in a different world right
Of of you know zero marginal cost
per user This is different ai with
AI apps every user interaction
is kind of a cost event And I'm
Alice Muir: curious,
like reflecting on this
Jacob: if you rebuilt the
subscription stack uh today for
for AI native apps you know what
Alice Muir: changes.
Yeah, it's a really good question.
I think a lot of the sort of general
principles would still say stay the
same, you know, in terms of making
sure to onboards users effectively, um,
personalizing the paywall, collecting
the right information, and then feeding
that into how you activate those users.
Um, but you're right that the big question
now is okay, but now there's this big
elephant in the room around engagement.
Because as, as you know, as it's now
talked about in the industry all the
time, like some of the highest engaging
users are the least profitable now.
So I think that's, if I was to
go back to the subscription stack
and revise it, and by the way,
thanks for the idea about that.
I'd like moved on to other things and
now I'm like, I'm gonna have to call
up Andy Corbell and ask him if I can
revise, revise the subscription stack.
Um, but yeah, I think we would, I think
I would have to layer in a whole section
about how to identify as we've been
talking about how to identify, like
how value users that, you know, could
potentially be on a much like a, a really
premium subscription plan where, you know,
giving them the ability to, a, to use
ai, um, AI features makes economic sense.
Um, versus like, you know, having,
you know, serving your sort of shorter
term use case and having things
like credit packs, usage limits, and
like how to, I guess maybe there's
a whole opportunity there to really
define frameworks around that.
Um, how to think about that.
Maybe questions to ask, um,
for developers to be asking or
publishers to be asking themselves.
Um, and I think like a lot of that
work is kind of floating around,
but it would be amazing to pull
that back into the subscription
stack and formalize it a little bit.
Um, but yeah, it cer certainly like
the engagement layer of the stack needs
definitely needs a revision in 2026.
But the rest I feel, you know,
can, would mostly stay the same.
I mean, thinking about kind of
reactivation strategies, um, I think
the one big thing the subscription stack
did was, was to, you know, remind people
that it's not enough just to focus at
the start and the end of the funnel.
Um, but actually, you know, to be.
Um, engaging with people throughout,
you know, their subscription
or throughout their life cycle.
Um, and I think that, you know, is
still very much, uh, remains true.
It's just, you know, as, as we've
been saying, like, how do we get
the right users onto the right
types of plans, essentially.
Jacob: Yeah And and yeah maybe kind of
dynamic offers segmented targeted offers
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: packs upsells in-app purchases
become an integral part where it's it's a
subscription stack framework but you can't
only solely rely on on on subscriptions
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: for kind of converting So I'm
I'm this is this is you know related but
um you know I I I I've seen and heard
other apps you know you don't always
Alice Muir: Always have.
Jacob: um uh the kind of you know
latest Claude or or or you know
open AI model that you can also
use some of the kind of the cheaper
LLMs or or local LLMs to kind of
Alice Muir: Kind
Jacob: there Have you have you
Alice Muir: Have you
seen that done at all?
Jacob: of how to layer in you know
Alice Muir: Yeah,
Jacob: or or resource intensiveness
of of different models
Alice Muir: I know that, I mean, I'm, I'm
definitely not an expert there, but with
the, with the portfolio of apps that I
worked with last year, that was one of
the things they did to reduce costs was
they actually switched models a few times
on some of their products, um, to make
sure that they were reducing costs there.
Um, so I know that that's like one tactic.
Um, that, and I think going
back to our earlier conversation
around how to protect costs, like
that's another major point there.
Um, so making sure that like, you are
not reinventing the wheel with users.
If there's things like, um, frequently
asked questions, for example, or
frequent, like, as I now say, like
frequently prompted things, making
sure to have like something kind of.
Written around that so that
you're saving GPU cost.
Again, earlier we talked about, um,
the, you know, having these kinda
like pre-made, pre-made examples
of like what outputs you can get.
But then yes, absolutely.
Also reviewing like your, um, the models
that you're using and what they cost
as well and, and you know, not being
scared to kind of jump ship, if that
makes sense, I think is another big one.
Jacob: Yeah Yeah For or maybe
for easy asks or easy tasks very
simple things You don't always
have to use the most sophisticated
high powered model I think that's
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: advice as you think about
managing costs and and how to how to
make a profitable business here So
Alice Muir: So,
Jacob: one last
Alice Muir: one last question.
Jacob: uh I have uh couple
Alice Muir: Lightning questions
Jacob: but but for think that um in some
Alice Muir: sense.
Jacob: you're a AI native company you
kind of build things from the ground
up Sometimes it's easier to figure
Alice Muir: to figure out,
Jacob: in new approaches for existing
subscription apps that for a founder
that's maybe listening they want to add
some AI features uh to their existing
subscription app Um What's the what
are the things they need to get right
before they before they ship that
Alice Muir: I think really doing
the back of the napkin math.
So figuring out what is, what
is the GPU cost likely to be.
And I think, um, one of the things I
did with the portfolio I worked with
last year was to sit down and say, okay,
well what's our worst case scenario?
Like, what do we think?
Like the person who's the most engaged
ever, like looking at the data to see
how, you know, how much, how much people
retain in usage patterns and this kinda
thing, what's the worst case scenario?
And then kind of like
building around that.
So, um, and also again, I think
we've kind of touched on this,
but making sure that you're not.
Packaging everything or lumping all
of the different types of actions
into the same kind of cost center.
So, um, like with them, for example,
I was encouraging them to kind of
keep text based things and like
cheaper actions separate to like
these more expensive actions as well.
So that when you come to putting together
like your price and tiers or your
subscription tiers on your lighter tier,
you can have the cheaper actions, but then
on like your, you know, more, more premium
tiers, then you've, you know, you've got a
good idea of what these different features
cost, if that makes sense, instead of
lumping it all together and then saying,
right, we're gonna give people on the mid
tier, um, x amount of like x amount of
text based things, but then we're gonna
give them three videos and like, whatever.
And like that just gets
really, really messy.
Um, and I think my advice in
that situation is, is that.
You, you try to be generous
on the stuff that's cheap.
Whether that means, given this part that
partly as a free trial or, you know,
even on your lower tiers, like the stuff
that's cheap, you try to be kind of, you
give as much of that away so that users
can, and add, as we said, like add that
into your requisition cost if possible
so that users, you know, can see what
your app does and they're more likely to
upgrade to a higher tier at some point.
Um, but yeah.
And then, and then thinking about your
worst case scenario for the things that
are actually expensive and pricing around
that, which sounds really obvious, but
like, in my experience, I don't know.
I mean, Jacob tell me, correct me
if I'm wrong here, but like for the
apps that I've worked with, it has
taken a while to sort of get to that.
You know, sometimes people, I dunno,
we've, I've definitely had situations
like people are excited about AI features
and like what it's gonna mean for their
product and all of that kinda stuff.
And then you're like, right, well
what's the, like, let's look at the,
the different cost centuries here and.
And I, yeah, sometimes it takes
longer than you would expect
for people to actually sit
down and properly do that math.
I don't know if that's your experience.
Maybe that's just the teams
that, um, you know, the things
that I've been exposed to.
Jacob: I think it's an unknown right
You haven't done it before And so when
Alice Muir: Things unknown.
You don't understand.
Well,
Jacob: you
Alice Muir: yeah.
Jacob: on
Alice Muir: Ate on them.
Jacob: and one other thing
Alice Muir: Other thing
I wanted to add is that
Jacob: make
Alice Muir: make sure
Jacob: features are
Alice Muir: actually adding value
Jacob: like actually gonna improve
retention Because if you're just adding
AI features you That don't actually
change retention or change usage usage
rates then you're just uh in increasing
your costs for no reason And so
Alice Muir: in your margin.
Jacob: okay yeah is it actually
helping your business Well that that's
probably the first thing Don't you
know don't just do it to do it Um yeah
Alice Muir: A hundred percent.
Jacob: yeah that that's great advice
Okay So uh last uh last couple
questions in our in our our lightning
round here So uh give me a a hot
Alice Muir: A hot take or
controversial take about
Jacob: app
Alice Muir: subscription monetization?
Jacob: that maybe other
people disagree with
Alice Muir: Disagree.
Yeah, I've got a good one.
I think that consumers don't
care about AI in the way that,
or no, they care about ai.
I think that consumers don't care
that your app is AI powered as much
as publishers think that they care.
And in some cases, I actually think
it turns consumers off a little bit.
Um, for example, if you've got something
that's like, uh, like say for example
you've got a work like a fitness app and
um, you've got like the coaches are all ai
or another one I saw recently was, we'll
help you optimize your LinkedIn and your
cv, but the whole thing's done with ai.
Like my inst my sort of instant
thought there is like, all right,
but that feels kind of cheap.
I don't know if you can agree with
that, but to me it feels kind of cheap.
Which, which we know is actually
ironic 'cause it's not cheap at all.
But you know, if I'm, if I, you know,
if I've got a utility or I've got like
a job to be done and I'm using a tool,
like an app or something to help me
get that job done, I want to be working
with somebody who's done it before who
can personalize the approach to me.
You know, that feels premium and.
I think a lot of like CEOs that I work
with get super excited about being like,
yeah, we're gonna do this, like AI powered
XY Z and, and I'm always a bit like,
yeah, but I don't, like, I think that's
interesting to us, but I don't think users
care as much about that as, as they do.
So it'll be really interesting to see.
Um, and actually, I, I saw an article
not too long ago by Andrew Chen, who
was the previous, um, growth lead.
He's super famous.
He was the previous
growth lead at, um, Uber.
And then, um, you know, I think now he is
like a VC and all this kinda stuff, and he
wrote that recently as well, that he was
finding that too, that, you know, people
are like, the consumers probably don't
really care that much about AI as well.
So I thought that was interesting to see
somebody else kinda speaking about that.
'cause it's definitely, you
know, myself, I, as soon as I see
something that's like AI powered
or whatever, it really puts me off.
I wonder, I would be, I'd be really
curious to know from somebody at ing.
The engagement of the, what the engagement
rates are of the ai, um, avatar,
kind of like cafe role play feature.
That one might be a bit different because
I think the whole thing about that
language learning is the embarrassment
of slipping up and getting things wrong.
So maybe with that, that's maybe, that's
perhaps a much better use case for it.
But yeah, I, I'm, I'm curious about
some of these bigger products and where
that will go and, and if, 'cause and,
and the balance between being open and
honest about what's AI and what's not,
versus like how do we market and package
these things, if that makes sense.
Jacob: It's I I think going
back to again first principles
uh features versus benefits
Alice Muir: Benefits,
Jacob: I AI is a feature right I I
don't care how you do things What what
am I getting from it What's the benefit
Consumers as a as a person what is
the outcome What is the benefit I'm
getting How you get it To me it doesn't
Alice Muir: Doesn't really matter
Jacob: you I don't need to
Alice Muir: how
Jacob: that you use the latest you
know LLM models on the back end I I
care about getting what I want to done
and and kind of what is this job I'm
getting done and and what's the benefit
to me And and so I I think you're right
I think this is the the age of um you
know internet companies right It's well
you're an internet company today You know
Alice Muir: today you're just a company
Jacob: now we're in the
Alice Muir: now.
Jacob: AI
Alice Muir: AI company.
Jacob: more years You're
just a company Yes of
Alice Muir: Yeah,
Jacob: You're using ai of
course you're using software
in in in your company And so I
Alice Muir: yeah.
Jacob: middle ground that everyone's
bragging about ai where where
this is just on the end of the
day will be kind of a a a core
component of you know any technology
Alice Muir: product.
Jacob: uh that that will be used And and
and it's it all comes back It's like are
are you help are you helping someone get
the job done that they want to get done
Um I I don't care how you how you do that
Alice Muir: That reminds me of
what was that expression that
people used to use and it was
when they would get a consultant
to come into their business and.
Um, I keep in my head I have digital
revolution, but it's, that's not
quite, it is somebody would come in
and like, turn a traditional business
into like a digital first, like give
the, you know, make sure they had a web
offering, like all this kind of stuff.
And, and it's actually, if you hear
that now, it's almost like laughable.
'cause it's like, well,
who's not doing that?
You know
Jacob: And I think that's
Alice Muir: I think that's
Jacob: for for these
Alice Muir: transition.
Jacob: Um yeah Okay
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Okay.
So, so last question.
Jacob: maybe you
Alice Muir: Maybe you
already mentioned it,
Jacob: answer has already but
Alice Muir: but
Jacob: the
Alice Muir: what's the biggest
Jacob: or packaging win you you've
seen or or had yourself It's the
Price Power podcast We have to ask
Alice Muir: Yeah, I think so.
I think the one I'm most proud of recently
is managing to get that web funnel.
Working and working well and to
be, you know, on like, um, you
know, to be smashing the kind of
the industry benchmarks there.
I think the reason why I'm so
proud of that is I just really
enjoy working with that team.
And I think it just makes such a
difference when you, when it's a
team that you enjoy working with
and you believe in the mission and
what they're doing and, and their
approach and all of that kinda stuff.
So that was very, um,
that was very satisfying.
But yeah, that was basically
stripping out the paywall.
Jacob: That's awesome
Yeah it's always nice too
Alice Muir: Nice.
Jacob: create a
Alice Muir: can create a
better experience for the user
Jacob: improves conversion uh
Alice Muir: Yeah.
Jacob: so so so don't ever forget
about the actual people uh using
your product at the end of the day Uh
Alice Muir: Hundred percent.
Jacob: Alice I I I so much appreciate
you joining Uh sorry for taking away
taking you away from your baby rave Uh
Alice Muir: Thank you.
Jacob: hopefully you you'll forgive
me Uh but I I really appreciate
you joining Um anything else
Alice Muir: Anything
Jacob: like to
Alice Muir: you'd like?
Jacob: or or have people go check out
Alice Muir: Um, good question.
I, yeah.
As I am basically independent now, I, I've
been independent for the last year and
yeah, I'm just really enjoying speaking
to companies that I, I like, I love kind
of smaller teams and companies that are
early stage and you know, people that,
similar to the example that just gave
are maybe struggling with conversion.
They're pulling their hair
out 'cause they've tried what
competitors are doing, for example,
and things are not working and.
Um, yeah, and, and if people are
needing support with, you know, pricing
paywalls, kind of early activation,
retention work, that kind of thing,
um, yeah, it's my bread and butter.
So, yeah, always feel free to reach out
and I've just lost my headphone again.
Jacob: Go go Follow go follow Alice on
LinkedIn We'll we'll share some links to
some of her her awesome content in the
show notes so you can go check it out
And uh yeah um definitely go go reach
out to Alice for help uh on paywalls and
activation Optimization Uh uh definitely
definitely world class there So yeah
thank you again Alice and and yeah looking
forward to to kind of seeing what you do
Alice Muir: Thanks Jacob.
It was really great to be here and,
um, to chat to you about all things
pricing and retention and activation.
Jacob: Awesome All right Bye
Alice Muir: See you later.
Bye.
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