Jacob: if you want objections and
problems and issues share on Reddit,
Sasha: Yes, but ironically, this
is something you as a startup
want because this is helpful.
People are finding the problems,
pointing out these problems.
Like this is extremely helpful and
refreshing after, you know, comparing
to the interviews that you may be doing
with friends and family where everyone is
trying to say like, how great and amazing
you are and it, you know, the pro progress
that you are making, the worst feedback
ever is, but the design is so nice
Jacob: Hey, Sasha, I'm so excited
to have you on the podcast today.
I think we first met, you know, a
few years ago now, and I, I saw you
recently launch your app, anticipate,
uh, one, congratulations on that.
I, I'm so excited for you, but I, I would
just love to, to be able to dig into
this, uh, this whole launch process more.
Sasha: Yeah, excited to be here.
And it is been quite a while, as
you said, a couple of years, and
I remember I reached out first
asking something about marketing for
mental health and health products.
So I'm excited to have a conversation
on the other side, uh, other side
of the, uh, um, of the kind of
launch process of the product.
Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Well, let, let, let's dive in.
So, you know, I, I know you
have a, a, a really small team.
I think you're two people right now.
When, when you're building this product,
like, I guess first, how did you
prioritize features for the MVP launch?
How did you know what to,
to build and do first?
Sasha: Sure.
So maybe a little bit of backstory
about anticipate and why it was kind
of, I understand the space, why it
was rather natural for me, um, to,
to work on something like that.
I have, uh, deep experience in marketing,
technology and data, and I've been
helping companies for years to set up
all the data, the infrastructure so
they can use it to optimize marketing,
to optimize product, to build better
engagement and retention flow for users.
And I've, we know when users, you
know, go outside or engage with a
product or, you know, do something.
Mean, uh, we have this data, but it's
used again, like for marketing and
product, uh, optimization purposes.
So I thought, why not to use this data
for something more, um, meaningful
in a way like mental health.
And I have myself deep
ties in, uh, mental health.
Like many of us, I have a, has history
of mental health challenges and I have
history of mental illness in my family.
Um, I have friend, uh, people in
my family, uh, who are in, uh,
mental health care psychiatrists.
So it was kind of, you know, natural for
me to combine these two world and see,
hey, there's lots of data available.
Mental health seems like users need
this data, so let's find a way to give
this users, give this data to users.
So it's kinda like it was quite
natural for me to, you know, start
thinking about this and have an
idea seed, if you will, that I,
um, that I could start building on.
And, uh, it's, um, and it's been quite a
journey because as I said, I was working
with marketing technology and data.
I was working as a consultant
at Flo Health and Deutche and
many other great companies.
And, um.
I had to start with something.
Um, I couldn't start building from the
get go, so I had to start with something
more, um, manageable for myself.
And I'm a big fan of Reforge and product
strategy courses that they're doing there.
And they had this great course,
uh, that is, that was about product
market fit narrative and kind of,
you know, testing, building and
testing product market fit hypothesis
without actually building the product.
And then I thought.
Hey, you know, it might be something that
will work out well for me because I cannot
commit to building something right now.
I am working almost full-time as a
consultant and I have commitments
to with my, to my clients.
And, but I want to start exploring the
idea and building something more out of
this tiny seed of an idea that I have.
And I've started working on this
product marketing, uh, product market
fit narrative document from Reforge.
And, uh, from there it's kinda like I
got the necessary amount of the inside
to actually understand how the first
version of the product should look like.
Jacob: Got it.
Got it.
And so from this, uh, uh, what, what were
Sasha: Yeah.
Jacob: of the specific tactics you,
you kind of used to, to kind of uncover
what this first version should be?
Um, what were the specific,
uh, did you, was it research?
Was it prototyping?
Sasha: Yeah, so actually all
of that, uh, product market,
uh, feed narrative framework of
Reforge, it was super specific.
It's basically like
step by step framework.
You're taking it and you start building
on your idea and you see it, you know,
get in shape and you are starting with an
initial insight, which I had this idea.
It can be, uh, or it should be earned.
So you kind of observed it yourself.
You understand it quite well.
It should be unique.
Because otherwise it's already out there.
You know, see what the
point working on this.
And it should be rather grounded in, you
know, where you're actually expert in.
So I had this and after that you
are shaping it into the narrative
itself, which is very classical.
The problem that you're trying to solve,
who you're solving it for, the value
proposition, the competitive advantage,
the growth strategy and business model.
And after that, which is which, which
is what the most important and the
most interesting part is you start,
you have this hypothesis, right?
You have this product market fit
hypothesis and this tag, this kind
of blocks and you are like, now
I have to identify and validate.
The most riskiest hypothesis.
So for us, it was kind of the problem
that we are trying to solve and
value proposition and competitive
advantage, by the way, I, I said
for us it was still only me then.
So it's kinda like for me, um, this were
the main problems and the way you validate
the risk is hypothesis is basically
like there are two ways, um, sequential.
Steps how you do it.
The first one you are doing market
research and you are getting expert advice
on, you know, how companies tackling this.
This is why, by the way, and how I
met you, uh, Jacob this two years ago.
This was the part of this process where
I was validating the riskiest hypothesis
and growth strategy was one of them.
So here you go.
The reason why I reached out
and the second part, which is
more important, is, uh, product
market fit interviews with users.
And I believe actually this
part, I got completely wrong.
I can go on.
Jacob: Yeah.
Tell, tell.
Yeah, yeah.
Tell me.
Tell me how you got it wrong.
I think that's, that'd
be super interesting.
Sasha: Yeah.
So you are basically with the
product market fit interviews, um.
Um, like, first of all, I'm very loyal
to Reforge and I love, you know, things
that are doing, but I think like this one
thing, they, they could have been kind of
more clear and, uh, emphasized something
I'll tell you, uh, about it in a sec.
So, uh, when you are doing product
market interviews, you are ideally trying
to get to the truth where the core,
if product, uh, problem to solve, for
example, uh, is your riskiest hypothesis.
You are trying to get to the truth.
What is the most important problem
to solve for the users, right?
The, and you are trying to
avoid the confirmation bias
as much as possible, right?
And you are forming the questions
in a way that, you know, what are
the most important things that.
That are on your radar when you're
thinking about your mental health, right?
And a person tells you, and after that,
all right, so I have this problem, I
am thinking about where this problem is
on, on the list of priorities, and you
are doing it over and over again, and
you get this knowledge and insight and
you, and you basically, you shape the,
uh, problem to solve, uh, into something
that is on top of their priorities.
The problem for us was that the problem
that people were communicating to us is
I.
Experienced so much pain in my last
mental health episode crisis, I
experienced so much pain there that
I do not want ever it to return.
And this is a tough, like
this is a very real problem.
Like this is the truth.
This is something that you
cannot argue with, right?
You, you kind of like, this is it, you
know, this is the fundamental reason
why mental health care is there.
Why there are so many products people
felt so horrible that they never
want to experience it ever again.
And I think like the, it's not
the mistake, but it, it's kinda
like the me step that I took.
And I should have tried to
understand this answer better.
I should have tried to understand.
What people like, how people are
solving this problem right now and
what are kind of like sub problems of
this large ambiguous problem chunk.
What I've done, I've taken this problem,
large problem as a truth, and I've
taken it like, lovely, this is my
problem solve and I'm going to solve it.
But this problem in itself, like it's
so large and ambiguous that especially
if you are a small tech startup, there
is no way you are able to solve this
despite, like all the effort, all the
best efforts you can put into this.
There is no way you can solve this.
So what I should have done, I should
have drilled this problem into more
tangible, solvable sub-problems and
tackle one of these sub-problems instead.
But, but at the same time,
during the interviews and market
research and expert advice.
We've accumulated, I've accumulated
so much knowledge about the space in
general, and so, uh, such a deep idea
of how painful mental health experiences
for people are that it's kinda like
it became a big part of me and this
is why I kept going throughout the
years and investing more and more time
into understanding this space deeply.
Even if, if there is no, uh, payback
out of this, it doesn't matter for me
at this point because of how much I felt
this space and why I want to work on it.
I actually think that many people who
are working in mental health, they're
doing it for this specific reason.
They know how painful it is, and
they want to dedicate themselves
into solving this for others.
Yeah.
Jacob: that's, um, inspirational.
I, I think you're right that working
in mental health is not an easy thing,
so you have to be kind of driven
by something greater than yourself.
Uh, but, but I believe that are a
hundred percent correct in figuring out
how to get to those, um, more specific
and, and, uh, solutions, uh, to kind
of people's, uh, people's issues there.
I, I was trying to think about when
you were describing, I was trying to
think about a, a, um, an example of
another product about, you know, CC
and let me know if this sounds right
to you, where, let's say you're, um.
You're building an app for
travel or flying, generally
going to the airport is terrible.
A poor experience flying sucks.
Uh, but you, if you, if you build an
app that's just trying to improve the
whole travel experience or the whole
flying experience, you're too broad.
You can, you're, you're not specific.
You're not focused.
And so drilling down into something
like, I don't wanna miss my flight.
I need notifications to know, uh,
where, uh, is my flight on time?
And then is the plane that's
arriving going to be on time?
So my flight is on time.
It's like getting that level
of specificity to understand,
okay, truly what are the, the
actual things we're solving here?
And, and, and I, I know that's, that's,
uh, um, uh, flying isn't, isn't quite
as, as critical as mental health.
Uh, but, but does that, is that
generally like you're thinking about it?
Sasha: Yes, exactly.
I think you're spot on with that.
And I am, I'm actually wondering,
I was wondering for a while, like,
how did I end up in this situation?
Because I thought that I'm, you
know, I'm clearing my interviews.
I have beautiful product market feed,
narrative document that is, you know,
straightforward and um, and ac and
actually right now I think I have an
answer how I ended up in this situation.
And I am.
Um, and I am pleased that I didn't
have any money at this stage to
waste into the direction and this big
ambiguous problem if it makes sense.
Jacob: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and so I, I think this, um, it
makes me curious, do you wish you did?
Less research and less upfront work and
built something faster to try to sell.
And, and maybe hard to know.
Like I, I'm sure you found all that
research that you did extremely
valuable and you'll carry that on
like that knowledge for years, but
you wish you went to market faster so
you could learn actually how people
respond and, and use what you've built.
Sasha: This is a great question.
I think in my situation, this is both so.
Um, it would be unfair for me that I say,
uh, if I, if I say, oh, I wish I'd go
into to market faster, because I wouldn't
have the right level of understanding
of mental health space in general.
So this is the gap that I had to
feel, uh, for the mental healthcare
professional, um, or researcher,
it would be a different situation
because they work with it for years.
They understand how it works.
Well, for me, I had to cover the gap.
So if I reflect back, I couldn't
have skipped this research phase.
I had to do this.
Now, uh, we've actually, after we've done
research, we had, I think around eight
rounds of iterations on the product.
So we actually went deeper.
So I had, you know, like this problem
that I tried to sell, uh, to, to,
um, problem that I tried to solve.
Um, I had an idea that we can use
data to help people, and I knew
that simplicity is important.
So it's kinda like, and as low
effort, uh, is important for users.
So I kind of doubled down on this
and we started iterating and we've
invested lots of time, uh, on iterations
the way it looked like we, I was
creating, uh, mockups in, uh, sketch.
I was showing users, seeing how they're
interacting, asking what would increase
value, uh, comparing to what they saw,
like what features, functionalities,
or something completely different.
Uh, then, um, me and the engineer,
uh, with whom I started working, uh,
we started developing the first proof
of concept versions and, um, uh, we
were enclosed better in test flights.
So we are, we were inviting people there
and, uh, getting feedback from them.
Um, I was using prolific
at this stage as well.
So the way I was sourcing initial, uh,
folks for interviews, this was, uh,
Reddit, this was LinkedIn, and this was,
uh, prolific when I needed an immediate
feedback from a large group of people.
Um, and I've, um.
And, and basically like this is the
part, it's not the research part, but
this is the part that I felt like wasn't
necessary these situations because it
felt like I'm skipping right now, thinking
back, I skipped a large, um, um, kind.
I skipped a couple of, tried to skip
a couple of, uh, steps ahead like
you were when you were doing the
sketch mockups and when you were, you
know, building something and putting
it out there in test flight or, you
know, God forbid creating an MVP and,
uh, launching it on the app store.
Um, you kind of, you, you should have
already a good idea of the demand
and of one case study, like one very
specific problem that you are solving.
And we didn't have that.
We had just big ambiguous problem that
we are solving without kind of this
drill down into Okay, like what are
specifics, as you said, you know, it's
not like solving the flight experience,
it's just showing, you know, connection
times between two flights and telling you
whether you will be on time to the next
flight when you're doing this connection.
So, and we didn't have that.
We've just doubled down on this
big ambiguous, uh, problem.
And, uh, uh, for this, um, for this
reason, like this is the part that I
felt like we, we should have changed
when we had all this experience
with all this knowledge, with the,
uh, interviews and expert advice
from product market fit narrative.
What we should have done really, is we
should have created a very simple deck
focusing on the demand as the first
part, and then we should have gone to
users, and we should have tried to sell
this and to see whether anyone converts.
That's what should we have, we should have
done instead of, you know, iterating on
the product, on the designs and, you know,
data demonstrations, which we tested,
uh, how chat, uh, interface, chat bot
interface can be used, or, you know, the
dashboards, how they can be used without
really understanding, you know, the why
and, uh, the what, uh, behind, uh, the
problem that we are trying to solve.
So it's kinda like this is the, the,
the change that, uh, I've made, I,
I would have made, uh, back then.
Jacob: Yeah, and you know, we
were talking about this before,
uh, uh, we started recording, uh,
but really starting with demand.
And we, we both agree that the,
um, Rob Snyder with the Harvard
Innovation Labs and his kind of coerced
and presentations on the path to
product market fit does a great job.
And kind of talking about
that really, um, figuring
Sasha: Something.
Jacob: demand, uh, what are
people actually trying to solve.
I think this ties well into
kind of jobs to be done.
Uh, if you don't understand that there's
tons of literature on it, go read it.
Uh, and, and then, but, but.
To your point, you never know
until someone, if someone actually,
uh, finds your product valuable
until you ask 'em to pay for it.
Uh, people want to, uh,
be nice to you, right?
People go, oh, this is so cool.
What a great idea.
Uh, okay, well, do you wanna pay for it?
Uh, maybe.
I don't know.
And, and until you do that,
you, you, you don't know.
Sasha: Yes, exactly.
And also, um, I actually think in
consumer products it's interesting
because there are use cases that are
extremely valuable, uh, to the users,
but they are so, um, commoditized.
Is it the right way to say that?
That people are not willing to
pay for them or pay for them much.
And there are use cases that are valuable
and people are willing to pay for them.
So the first use cases where they're
valuable, but people were not.
Are not able to pay for them.
You're basically using it for, uh,
growth and for engagement and for
retention to accumulate your audience.
And then the second set of kind of
values you are using them to, uh,
monetize, to convert users into premiums.
So, and I believe like these two parts,
this very important to understand and
I felt into this trap, uh, as well.
And I felt, feel like many, um, startups,
uh, fell into this trap kind of trying to
blend these two and, uh, you know, without
understanding, like the willingness to
pay where it, it is feature by feature.
Jacob: I mean two tools, um, for
understanding like willingness to
pay in general, uh, van West and DOP
analysis, uh, is kind of a survey.
You know, four simple questions you
can use to understand overall, um, uh,
a willingness to pay for a product.
And then conjoint analysis, um,
can be helpful to understand
on an individual feature level.
But.
Until you actually have users of
your product, they're not super
helpful because you're just asking
random people doing surveying and
they're not actually representative
of who, uh, you're recruiting.
So YY these, these tactics are valuable,
but they're not the end all, be all.
They're, they're a data point
that, that you should use.
Sasha: Yeah.
I actually think that you are making a
very important point here about kinda the.
Random group of people, you
know, providing the insight
and providing the feedback.
I feel like this was also one of the
mistakes that we've made and, um, I
see it clearly now, it's, you should
be very intentional about the audience
that is providing you with the feedback.
And there are kind of two ways to
think about it, like the audience
whom you are interviewing, but also
people whom you are acquiring into the
live product as your first customers.
It's very easy to think about, you know,
oh, we've launched an app and we will
launch it on Product Hunt and on Reddit,
and we get lots of traction there.
And, uh, but after that, like all the
signal that you are getting, you see
the spike in interest, you get the
feedback, which is, hmm, semi relevant.
So you need to um, really
understand what kind of what.
What you want to get outta this feedback
and also the metrics you will see,
you know, your retention rate tanks,
engagement rate tanks, like, you know,
people leaving you, is it a testament that
this is a bad product or is it a testament
that you've actually used the channel
and, uh, you know, scaled to, uh, to soon
and, uh, you're basically hitting the
wrong audience with the right product Or
maybe, you know, right audience with the
wrong product, you are not able to tell.
So for, uh, this reason, I
actually really loved, um.
Very recent, uh, web Summit, uh,
interview of, uh, founder of, uh, tally.
And, uh, she was saying that like the
first growth that you're making is not
about MRR or anything like that, the
first growth you are making just to get
100 very intentionally collected users
who are providing you with the feedback.
So you can iterate on this feedback
and bring, build something valuable
six months down the line that you can
use to actually, you know, monetize.
But the first user is the first feedback.
Um, it should be super, uh, intentional.
And I'm speaking about this
from my personal experience.
We did, um.
Uh, launch, uh, the app on Reddit
and also app advise back in October,
uh, which was great from the
kind of installs point of view.
And also with, uh, our rankings
increased on the app store
because of the surge of traffic.
So very classical, but at the same
time, like the, uh, the feedback, the,
the, the data that we saw from, from
these users, it, it was, it wasn't
demonstrating us everything that, um.
You know, it wasn't given us back
loss of value if it makes sense.
So for this reason, you know, being
very intentional in the beginning,
first users, uh, for the feedback
and helping you develop the product.
And that should be the focus,
not, um, um, not, uh, MRR growth.
Uh, by the way, from Reddit, we've got
lots of great feedback and objections,
which are incorporated in our roadmap, and
many of these have been solved already.
So, yeah.
Jacob: if, if you want objections
and problems and issues share on
Reddit, everyone on Reddit will be
very helpful to point out how you're
wrong, how everything you're doing is
bad and some people will be helpful.
But I, I feel like Reddit is, uh,
uh, a, a, you get both, both sides.
Every, everyone has strong opinions.
Sasha: Yes, but actually like ironically,
this is something you as a startup
want and this kinda like, this is
exactly it because this is helpful.
People are finding the problems,
pointing out these problems.
Like this is extremely helpful and
refreshing after, you know, comparing
to the interviews that you may be
doing with friends and family where
everyone is trying to say like, how
great and amazing you are and it, you
know, the pro progress that you are
making, the worst feedback ever is,
but the design is so nice, you know?
Jacob: Right, right.
Sasha: Yeah.
So for this.
Jacob: that's that's interesting.
Sasha: Yeah, when we went on Reddit,
I think it, uh, it didn't, uh, pay off
in terms of, um, you know, um, kinda
expectations of MRR growth or anything.
Also because like we did it completely
for free, so we, uh, made the product
free for a limited, um, uh, period of
time to, um, kind of get, uh, users
and, and the feedback, um, and, um.
But, um, the feedback that we've
received from it was amazing.
It's people were reviewing the privacy
policy and pointing the gaps and,
you know, um, had shared ideas about
how we can make our privacy practices
and data security more, uh, robust.
And this was amazing.
We implemented, uh, everything that,
uh, was suggested and also, um, you
know, how, and at which stage, like
there were debates about when mental
health products they are actually
starting having, uh, um, clinicians, um,
in their integrated into their teams.
Uh, for us, we've been, um, clinicians
where consulting us, uh, continuously
during this process, so that's great.
However, that's definitely not
enough if we want to scale.
And it became obvious because
this is the questions that.
Would be asked, not only on Reddit, but
this is the questions that will be asked
as we scale by, you know, investors
and media and you know, what are not.
So for this reason, it was very
important for us to do this
launch and get this feedback.
Um, but again, like this is because
Reddit is Reddit, I am afraid that if
a company, if a product goes viral on
TikTok or gets, you know, just feedback
from some platform, like app advice
for example, and it's way too early
and if the only signal the company's
able to get of it is the product signal
product engagement signal, I believe
it's very misleading and dangerous.
Jacob: Yeah, and it's, it's dangerous
either for, even for mature products.
Um, I, I've, you know, worked at
apps and been at apps, you have some
viral moment, something takes off,
uh, and, and it can actually decrease
your overall rankings because these
people install but don't do anything.
They don't purchase, they don't
convert, they don't retain.
It's wasted time, wasted effort.
And so this, this, um, you know,
there, there's this myth of virality.
I, I is, uh, kind of danger.
I think that generally viral
acquisition strategies aren't great.
You have to be, even for viral kind of
growth loops, referral loops, things
like that, you have to understand
them well, uh, and monitor them well.
So it's usually,
You know of, of course you hear about
all the people that succeeded, got,
you know, millions of users from that.
But, but generally it's, it's, it's
not what you should be aiming for.
Sasha: Yeah, I'm all for sustainable
growth and I, I also believe, um, I know
what you're talking about, and I also
believe that any virality like it's.
It's math, basically it's calculation.
It should be very intentional if it's
your strategy, like you are building
the whole product and you know, the
whole marketing growth engine around it.
It's not that, you know, like one-offs
that you are hoping to get, um, as
you said, like it can, uh, skew res
your results and harm your product.
So, no, it, it's kinda like it's
a standalone, um, gross mechanic
that you can choose to use and you
have to be very intentional about
this and understand it deeply.
Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah.
So, so, um, uh.
Maybe what are the specific
channels you have been using for
kind of growth in marketing today?
Are, are you, are you in the phase where
you're trying to scale up or is it still
kind of, uh, you know, trying to get users
and still understand and, and, and, you
know, understand retention, conversion?
So I guess, yeah.
Two, two questions kind of.
Where are you in your, you think
your product scaling stage, but
then, you know, what, what channels
are you, you looking for, uh,
finding effective to get new users?
Sasha: Yeah.
So, um, initially, uh, classic channels
doing things that do not scale.
Um, uh, right, so it's basically
like LinkedIn and then it's Reddit,
and then it's, um, you know,
one-offs, um, on app, uh, app advice.
We've also, I've also found, um.
Apple's in-app events, uh, working
quite well because when you are as a
young startup, when you are launching an
in-app event, you basically get a bump,
uh, in rankings because of the keywords
that you are using in the in-app event.
And also, like Apple gives you visibility
because I feel like not many startups
are leveraging in-app events, uh, yet.
It's um, almost, um, you know,
considered and promoted as something
for more mature companies to do.
But I'm actually curious why, because
for a young startup it can give you
a boost in visibility in installs.
So why not to do this?
So I found this, uh, working
quite well and it's kinda like.
But this is, but right now, I'm
actually, uh, took a pause on growth
because it became obvious that the
product that we've built right now
that we have right now, it's not, um,
it's, it's not clear on the demand.
It's not clear on the problem
that, uh, we are solving.
So for this reason, in the last couple
of weeks, I've taken a step, step back,
get back, go back to the drawing board,
understanding where we sit in the market,
um, having conversations with users
from the selling and demand perspective
instead of like, here's the product
and design is nice kind of perspective.
Um, and, uh, for this reason, like
this is my sole focus right now is
building something that people will
love and hopefully will have enough
value out of it to pay for it.
Jacob: Yeah, that makes sense.
And I think realistically, you're never
gonna get it right the first time.
Um, you're going to have something
that doesn't work perfectly.
You're gonna acquire users, you're gonna
find the wrong audience that isn't right.
You're gonna iterate to an
audience that's a little better.
You're gonna change the product.
And, and, and that's really kind
of the product development process
and growth process right of you.
You slowly improve and iterate
and tweak and learn, and then
do it over and over again.
Sasha: Yeah, exactly.
I actually, you know, I found a
couple of frameworks that were super
helpful and actually, so maybe I'm,
I'm run a little bit ahead of myself,
but we've got really helpful advice.
So when we had this moment, like we
launched and we have product, which
seems nice, we have people who are
using it daily and providing us feedback
that they love it, which is amazing.
Um, and, uh, we have a team right
now and we had what I thought like.
You know, sure thing, roadmap for the
next, let's say, six months that we can
start working on, so actually, like you
remember this thing I said that I was
grateful that I didn't have large funds,
didn't have large funds back then to, you
know, start just investing, pumping into
paid acquisition or influencer marketing
and, you know, start, start growing this.
Because for us, I felt like it was very
easy to start doing this, to get misled
by our results and, uh, start doing that.
Because again, like we are receiving
great feedback from, from, you know,
some users, they, they love it.
They, they found, they genuinely use
the app daily, which makes me excited.
But at the same time,
I do not have a signal.
I do not understand why they're doing it
right, what they're getting out of it.
And for this reason, I almost, I did
not have a replic replicable case
study that I could have used to find.
100, then 1000, then
10,000 more of these users.
So this is the reason why I got back
to the drawing board, and I'm just
like, let's focus on the demand and
the very specific drilled down problem
that we are trying to solve here.
And, uh, we've all, I've also had a
moment of panic, just like I need to
talk to people in the industry who had
experience starting the business and
just to get their advice, like to see
what I, you know, what I'm doing wrong.
Like, you know, point, like what doors I
haven't opened, where I haven't looked at.
Um, and, um, we've got, uh,
five really good bits of fe uh,
of, uh, feedback and advice.
Um, the first one is, um, was we
need to understand what people value.
And ready to pay for and what people
value, but they're not ready to pay for.
And, uh, for example, people are,
will never pay for their own data and
for tracking because this is the data
that they're incorporating themselves.
And for this reason, it's,
it's kinda like their data.
They feel like they're owning
it and also it's available for
free, enable health, for example.
So whatever tracking and we
do, we try to do on our side.
Um, it should be, it should be free.
Um, and we need to figure out
like other ways to monetize it.
The second, uh, theme that I found,
uh, is that I, um, that someone shared
with me is, um, the sole focus right
now should be on finding 10 people and
trying to, to, uh, tell, to explain.
Once again.
So, um, the second thing is finding
10 people who love the product and who
have the problem, and explaining how
we will get 100 more of these people.
So it's kinda like replication.
We are able to have a case study,
understand it deeply, and then
being able to replicate it.
The third advice, which I
found to be absolutely amazing,
is to talk to non-customers.
To talk to people who are not only not
customers of your product, they're not
customers of any mental health product.
And understand why is that?
It was eye-opening.
Uh, then another piece of advice that
we've got is preparing for the long run.
So it's basically how long you can,
uh, stay and, uh, and try again
and again without, uh, damaging
your quality of life, right?
It's, um, and the final piece
of feedback is early focus on
feedback and not revenue metrics.
And I felt like in the beginning
I had this panic moment,
like we launched the app.
It wasn't growing at the
rate I was expectable.
Obviously right now I see like no way
in the world it could have happened,
but I had this moment of panic where
like, I have to show, you know, revenue
numbers straight away and it was, you
know, it required me to switch my brain.
That right now.
Now, right now, the focus should be
on the feedback and improving the
product, building something that people
truly love and revenue will follow.
But right now, you know, we have
to focus here and, and a couple
of kind of frameworks that I
used, actually just two of them.
So the first one is, uh, the
classic Blue Ocean I last
Reddit in, uh, the university.
And right now I read it again and just
like, wow, it makes so much sense.
And it's, it's very practical
because there you are basically,
you know, encouraged to understand
where you see it in the market.
You compare yourself against, uh, your
competitors and look at the features.
And when a.
Drew, you know, this chart, you know,
of like functionalities and what I
am bringing to the market, what I am
decreasing, what is not necessary,
what I'm trying to increase, like
raising the bar of the market, what
I'm trying to eliminate, uh, because,
you know, it doesn't make sense to
the users and what I'm trying to add.
And it became obvious
that I'm not adding much.
And I started charging users for
something that they get completely
for free in other products.
So how come?
And it became just obvious that I
need to think about the different
product strategy and about the
different, uh, uh, value proposition.
So that was great.
Um, and, um, uh, from the interviews
with the, um, and the inter um, and the
second part that you are doing there
in the kind of, when you're trying, uh.
To map the blue ocean, uh, canvas.
The first one, you compare it to
yourself against the, uh, competitors.
That's great.
And after that, like you are
doing interviews, you're trying to
understand, you know, the current
users, what they are missing on the
market, what they do not need in the
market, what they would love to have
more, um, in the existing offering.
Um, as a second group, you are looking
at the people who are on the edge
of, uh, converting into customers.
Very close, but not yet there to
understand what's preventing them.
The second group, which I found like
the most important group, is people who
chose against existing solutions and your
solution, because what you're looking.
Four here is actually commonalities
between these groups and this like,
choose and again, so why it's happening.
Um, there's also the fourth group,
which is unexplored markets,
which, you know, distant markets.
I won't go, uh, there.
But this part, like this group who
chose against, it's actually, it was the
most insightful group for me because it
became clear that people are choosing
against existing mental health solutions
first because of their complexity.
You are opening, um, a mental health
app and you are just bombarded
with everything that this mental
health app has and they're like.
I have no idea.
I came for, um, for a white noise sound
that I've been using for two years,
and you are making it really hard for
me to find this white noise sound.
So how, how is it possible?
It's, it's not helping my mental health.
It's actually, if
anything, it's damaging me.
Um, and uh, the second part, so the
complexity is the first part, and the
second part is effort because people like.
It's interesting how people are describing
themselves, like they are almost punishing
themselves for not able to do things.
They're like, yeah, my therapist is
telling me I should start journaling,
but I'm too lazy for that, or I
don't have motivation to do that.
Or I started doing it for two days and
I couldn't have cont couldn't continue.
And it feels like people feeling bad
that they're not able to do that,
and they're telling me, you know.
Something, I think something is wrong
with me that I am not able to do that.
And I'm thinking inside, like I've
talked to 50 people before you,
they're all telling the same, it's,
there is nothing wrong with you.
When you are, start feeling worse,
the first thing that goes out of
window is motivation to do anything.
And you have priorities like
get out of bed or take a shower
or communicate with your spouse
or, you know, things like this.
The last thing that you have on your mind
is, you know, start adding something to
the mental health app and people are like,
yeah, it can be, yeah, it can be the case.
So it's actually the trap.
If we've, if we are focusing only,
only on the current segment, the
trap that we are getting ourself.
Like in, in the current, uh,
consumers of existing products
or your product, the trap you're
getting yourself into, you kind of
narrowing your audience significantly.
You are not trying to solve, you know,
a wider problem, but you're trying to
refine the solution that already exists
for, you know, the existing audience.
Somehow they are using the product
so somehow they're happy with it.
But maybe if you are solving
the problem of this tier.
Two group, which who chose against, maybe
you will make lives of people in the first
group who are consumers easier as well.
And they will have, the product
will exceed their expectations.
So this was one of the most important
advice, like talk to people who
are not consumers and not customers
of your product or any product and
understand why they chose against it.
Um, one of the most eye-opening things.
Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah, that it's, that's
super fascinating because it's
kind of counterintuitive, right?
Where you would assume that you want to
focus on people, uh, that, that you know,
would be, uh, users of mental health apps.
And I'm, I'm still, I.
Um, I still feel like there's probably
people out there who are never gonna buy
or pay for any product, and maybe their
advice is helpful, but it, but it's really
is, as a founder, it's on you to, to, uh,
uh, pick that out and understand, uh, uh,
what is, what is what there, um, yeah.
One second.
I need to, my dog is going crazy.
I need to close the door real quick.
Okay.
Sorry.
Um,
Sasha: It's actually
Jacob: you.
Sasha: yeah, I'm, uh, super quickly.
I'm also thinking about it and,
uh, um, you know, uh, talking to
non-consumers, it actually made me
realize that our true competitors
are not mental health apps here.
And reminder of what
anticipate does is, uh.
Kinda collecting the data, um, and,
uh, transforming it into meaningful
insights like time outside, sunlight,
early bedtime, late, late, late bedtime,
and showing it to the user so they
can make a decision of, uh, you know,
how well they're doing and how recent
days can impact their mental health.
So the true competitors here are
not existing mental health market,
but it's actually Apple Health and
wearables because people and, and
fitness apps, which is my favorite.
So the way people are solving this
problem right now, they are actually
installing a fitness app that is take,
uh, telling them how much they're
walking per, per day, or they're just
looking at Apple Health and they have
a calculation in their head in a way.
Um, you know, I'm taking like
that many steps on the day, and
that means like one hour or two
hours outside, which is my goal.
And it doesn't require any effort from
me, just the effort during analysis to
understand, to kind of understand how
many hours outside I spend per day.
Um, so, so basically like it's
not even mental health apps
that we are competing against.
We are competing against, um, um, apple
Health and also the wearables data.
And what we will be trying to do, we will
try to do more to make more clear to,
for users to read so they don't have to
decode it in their brain by themselves.
Jacob: I think that's, it's, it is an
important point of, um, competitors.
Are usually, or, or depending on
your product, are often not actually
your direct competitors, they're your
substitutes where the substitutes
for your product are often the,
the norm, the use case today.
And so compared to another mental app,
like if we look at the whole percentage
of people in the world that use, you
know, mental health apps, it's like,
it's kind of small, but if you look at
the percentage of the people going to
therapists, journaling, doing all the
other things, just not dealing, not
doing anything, uh, uh, for it, like
that audience is actually way larger.
And, and you know, similar, like if
you're, if you're trying to convince
someone to use a, a Notes app on your
phone, the competitors are, are not
like Evernote, the competitors are
every single person that uses pen
and paper or like, that's who you're
trying to convince and win over.
And so like.
Yeah, thinking about competitors usually
ignores the reality of the world where
your, your customer doesn't, don't think
about, oh, I'm using a competitor today.
Uh, you know, go, this is just what I do.
Like I, I, I, I, you
know, I write things down.
It's, and so like trying to get
into that mindset of what is
someone's actual daily habit?
What is someone's actual experience in
the world and how do you tap into that?
And, and then typically,
like it's better to, um.
You don't want to create something new.
You want to create something that's
an extension of something someone
already does or like slow changes.
And, and so in my mind, correct me if
I'm wrong, it's kind of like your, um,
I think you mentioned this a little bit
earlier, like journaling, to kind of track
your, your mental health or something
that therapists recommends, but uh, no
one actually does it 'cause it's just
hard to, to maintain and hard to, but
if you can make that easier and simpler,
you can have a really simple intervention
for people's that lives are, are maybe
already kind of hard and difficult.
Sasha: Yes, exactly.
And this is what we will be trying to do.
It'll definitely be a long
ride for us to, to get there.
Uh, but hopefully we are
more clear right now.
It's actually maybe an important point
about the demand and one case study.
It's also important to understand why
people are doing journaling in general.
The reason people are doing
that, because they want to become
experts in their mental health.
And the reason why it is important for
them is because unlike with physical
illnesses, when they, when people are
going to, uh, therapy, psychiatrist,
or a regular gp, um, they, doctors rely
on you to tell them what's going on.
Um, they rely on you to tell them how
your mood has been changing, how you've
been sleeping, whether you were active.
Are you taking any vitamins?
Are you getting light enough?
Sunlight?
And people are like.
What the hell?
I do not know what I ate for breakfast.
So how do I know, um, how do I know?
Like I don't have, you know, 30 days of
data to tell, to tell you to, to help
you understand how I've been doing.
And this is, uh, the case study that
we've got to eventually and that
we will be trying to facilitate for
users and then hopefully replicate
is collecting the data for, to help
people become experts in their mental
health so it's easier for them to
go through therapy and, uh, doctors.
That's it.
Jacob: So, so something, something you
mentioned earlier, uh, around focusing
on kinda retention and feedback and, and
usage and not monetization, but you also
said focus on demand and try to sell.
Uh, so how do you, how do you think
about balancing those two things?
Is it, well, we just have to
have a good product first and
then we can try to monetize?
Or, or what is, how do you differentiate
between finding demand but not monetizing?
Sasha: Yeah.
Uh, good question.
So, in the beginning, I feel like
you should start with finding
demand without having a product.
So you are just, you know, you don't
have any humanization, you kind of have
a hypothetical humanization in a way,
or, you know, if you are comfortable with
it, maybe not the case for the mental
health, but for B2B is converting users
into customers straight away, right?
Even without having the product,
uh, for mental health again.
We're not able to do that,
uh, for, uh, ethical reasons.
Uh, but it's kinda like when you're
starting with a demand and trying
to understand, understand it,
you don't have to have a product.
You just have to have, uh, a slide
deck that starts with, you know,
here is the case study here, here are
the problems that a person had whom
we helped, you know, which of the
problems, uh, resonate with you most.
And here is why, um,
they had this problem.
What is your why?
And going through, uh, the slide deck
from the problem that people are trying
to solve to actually your solution.
And ideally, you want to get
hell yes for every single slide
that you're showing to users.
And that is your signal that you
are onto something and you can start
building something that, um, these, that
solve this problem for, for the users.
So, and ideally you don't have
any product at this stage, right?
You, you are just because your slide
deck will change so many times in
such drastic ways that this is analog
of, uh, all the iterations, expensive
iterations that you would do in the
product, otherwise on, uh, on the journey
of trying to find product market feed.
But you are doing it with
a very cheap slide deck.
So, and, uh, I feel like that should
be the first, uh, the first step.
And it's kinda like when you have an idea
about the demand and what the product
should look like and you build it and,
you know, ideally you have the idea that
where the value is and what people are.
Willing to pay for.
So you can start monetizing
straight away in, uh, in this case.
Um, but if you are going with building em,
empathy, launching it, hopefully getting
traction, introducing some paywalls.
I actually do not see the world how this
can be a good humanization strategy.
And unfortunately I'm saying that
because I did the same mistake despite
all the years of experience that I
had, and I wish I have avoided that.
But here we go.
Jacob: Yeah, sometimes, uh, the
only way to learn is the hard way.
Uh, and you, I experienced this myself.
I have all this experience in marketing
and growth and all these things, but when
Sasha: I.
Jacob: own company, your own
product, sometimes you have
to learn all those lessons.
Again, doesn't matter.
All the feedback and advice.
Uh, yeah, I, I think you know, something
I was curious about 'cause you have great,
uh, kind of MarTech, uh, background.
Analytics backgrounds.
You, you, you, you talk a lot about,
about understanding user behavior
and, and, uh, um, you know, how
do we, how do we see retention?
I think a lot of early app founders
are like, there's so many tools
out there to figure out what do
I actually need to get started?
Um, you know, what's your advice?
What did you start with in terms of
events and analytics and tracking
and, and then maybe how, how do
you use that for decision making?
Sasha: Yeah.
Um, so actually I think this was one
of the few things that I got right.
I felt, I feel like, um, and, uh, I, my
best advice would be here to go step by
step and don't try to track something
that is meaningless in the first.
In the first stages, like for example,
for us it was in the beginning.
The only thing that matters matter to
us is we are able to get first users.
Maybe it wasn't right,
but this was the focus.
The dashboard that can tell you if
you're getting the first users or
not, is, uh, basically your database.
Uh, where you st you see
records start appearing.
This is the dashboard of, uh, uh,
the app store and Google play.
And that's enough to see,
you know, the first traction.
And then what you want to see is,
all right, so all users coming back.
Um.
There.
The dashboard's not ideal
because the data is very limited.
So what you would want to see is have to
have some, you know, very simple app open
events, which you can map against the user
IDs and by dates and basically see, you
know, whether users are returning or not.
Again, like you're doing it
through your existing database.
Super simple.
You're just doing this and you see initial
retention cohorts and after that you are
like, alright, so we have some users.
We see they're coming back, but we do
not know where they're coming from,
where they installed from, and we do not
know what they're doing in our product.
So these are the two problems
that we need to solve now.
So, and at this stage, you're like, cool,
I can install, install up flyer to help
us understand where users are coming
from, and I can install Amplitude to see
some initial, uh, product analytics to
see how people interact, uh, with our
product to, uh, make better, uh, product
decisions, uh, eventually kill what
doesn't work, improve what, what works.
Um, and uh, and basically that's it.
And after that, like you are, you are
trying to solve essentially what I would
advise not to, not to go with, you know.
Big braces or, you know,
straightaway of this world also.
It can be very tempting, but no,
like go very slowly, step by step
and cover, you know, identify the
problem, the data that you're missing,
the inside that you're missing.
Implement it and start and start tracking.
Uh, from there.
Um, a quick example, I mentioned brace.
Right now we have only local
push notifications and we're not
collecting emails for privacy reasons.
So we would have no use, uh, use of it.
We, we will not be doing, uh,
email marketing anytime soon.
Um, and we have, yeah, only
a local push notifications.
So, and it'll be like that for a while
because of the simplicity, because
of the cost and, uh, the privacy and
uh, um, yeah, I feel like it was one
of the good decisions that we made.
Jacob: I think that's an important
thing that typically for most products,
uh, you don't really need many other
messaging channels unless it's a
core part of the product, like you're
using for your local notifications,
your kind of check-in reminders.
Generally, um, you can maybe get a five,
10, 15% lift in, you know, revenue through
notifications and, and email, but like.
90%, 80% of your users will always
convert just in that core product
flow on the first session, uh,
and, and convert immediately.
So really optimizing that new user
experience in the product is usually
the highest impact thing you can
do, versus push notifications or
adding other messaging channels.
It's all about that, that first
product experience and then
understanding, yeah, what people are
actually doing and engaging with,
with some, some basic analytics.
I, I think, uh, uh, makes a lot of sense.
Sasha: Yeah, and especially in the
beginning, when you are small, you
don't have, uh, much resources.
You are, you, you know, you're
just very tiny and you are trying
to, uh, people will not grant you.
Five minutes of their time to explore
all of your product and retain
for a couple of months after that.
What you're trying to do, you're
trying to make the first kind
of minute or, um, I heard it in,
uh, in the interview of, um, uh,
God, I forgot the name.
What's the name?
Just AI slide deck, um, gamma, sorry.
Jacob: Oh, gamma.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Sasha: Here we go.
I've heard it into the, uh,
in the interview of Gamma.
So they've, at one point in the product,
they focused just on the first 30 seconds
and they said that they want to do the
most magical experience for the users.
And this is the only be that they've
made, they haven't been doing
any improvements in the product.
Only the first 30 seconds they
were ruthlessly optimizing and
making it absolutely magical.
And, uh, if such large companies as Gamma
are doing this, um, who have grown, uh,
rapidly, uh, in a short span of time.
So I feel like there's something in there.
Jacob: Yes, it, it's, uh, first
impressions matter with people.
They matter with products too.
Humans are emotional.
We make decisions.
With emotions first, and
we rationalize later.
And so if you can make someone happy, if
you can make someone feel good, if you
can generate some excitement, any way
you can get some emotional connection,
some emotional resonance, immediately
people go, they're all of a sudden more
receptive to your logical, rational
arguments of benefits and why this is
a good idea and how it'll help you.
And so, yes, I, I, I, I, I think
that's, it's a good framework
to, to think about there.
Um, yeah.
So any, any, um, any kind of
last summarization of kind of
learnings, feedback, mistakes you
wanna share with other founders?
Sasha: Ooh.
I think maybe it'll be most helpful if
I share my, um, my next steps and, uh,
it'll be helpful, other founders as well.
So again, like what I'm doing right now,
trying to figure out one case study,
making it replicable and going from there.
Focusing just on one case right
now, and again, doing it without
building the product first, but
just focusing on getting this
understanding the demand, right?
So I'm able to build the right product
Once we do that, and especially in the.
You know, context of, uh, um, you know,
making the first 30 seconds magical.
How will we understand that
they are truly magical?
So we'll just be prototyping and we'll
be showing the, uh, sketch designs,
uh, to, uh, um, existing users, to
people who are non-consumers, uh,
and, uh, people, uh, from, again,
like prolific and, uh, ballpark.
There are many tools
like that, uh, out there.
So we'll just iterate, uh, with them.
And after that we'll start development.
And after that, when we receive the
next signal that there is additional
value that we can add to the users.
We'll start the process all over again.
We'll try to understand it.
We will.
Sketch it, we'll show it, we'll iterate
it, and after that we'll start development
and after that we will, uh, roll it out
and hopefully iteratively we will build
something meaningful and growth will be.
Will equal product and tool equal
marketing for us, because we are tiny.
We're a two person team.
We, we get support from amazing
people, but the core team is still
two people for us, two women.
And uh, for this reason we'll be
thinking growth from the beginning.
Like we will be, uh, checking
what's priorities of Apples to
hopefully get their support as well.
We will continue launching functionalities
through, uh, new features that we are
adding through and content through Apple.
Uh, in-app events.
We've done good job, uh, responding
to all objections through our
products on audience on Reddit.
So hopefully with the next iteration
we'll be able to celebrate a much more
robust product together with them.
So we'll be offering.
A large part of our product completely
for free will be monetizing just
like again, the parts where the
willing willingness to pay pays high.
Not only the value is high so people can
experience lots of it completely for free.
Um, all people, uh, even if you can't
afford something, it'll be optional
for you to buy, but you will be able
to still get the core value outta the
product for free for as long as you like.
So yeah, for this reason, three things.
Focusing on one study, iterating
without development and growth equals
product, equals marketing for us.
So hopefully it's helpful for other
entrepreneurs out there as well.
Jacob: Yeah.
That's amazing.
And I'll, I'll, I'll reinforce
one la one thing you said of, you
know, when you're doing those, uh,
interviews, you want, hell yes.
If you're not getting hell yes to,
to kind of what you're building, uh,
you know, keep on, keep on trying.
And so I think you, you summed
it up amazingly well of it.
It, you just keep going, keep
iterating and keep learning it.
It doesn't end.
Yeah.
Uh, um, well, well, cool.
We'll, we'll this was, I, I,
we shared so many, uh, kind of
amazing resources and, and links.
Uh, we'll include those in the show
notes for everybody to go and find.
Um, I'll, I'll kind of, I'll comb through
the episode to make sure we get 'em all.
'cause I think there was, there
was so many good, good quotes
and podcasts and presentations.
Uh, and everyone go check out,
anticipate, uh, I, I think it's,
it's a really interesting product.
I'm, I'm really excited to
see, uh, uh, see how it grows
and see where you take it.
So, uh, we're, we're de
definitely rooting for you.
Sasha: Wonderful.
Thank you so much for having me here.
Just pleasure.
Jacob: Yeah, it's my pleasure.
All right.
Thank you so much.
This is great.
All right.
Bye.
Thanks for listening.
Hope you enjoyed.
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All.